The Confucian Way | Zeng Yi: Gongyang School Analysis of China’s Reform

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Since the beginning of the last century, opposition to ancient traditional culture has become the beginning of China’s modern thought. Among them, Confucianism, which occupied the mainstream ideology of ancient society, has become the target of public criticism and has been attacked unprecedentedly. In the past century, with the disintegration of traditional society and the change of lifestyle, Confucian culture seems to have become a thing of the past. Although there are Confucian scholars who continue their studies and promote their purpose, it is difficult to reverse their decline. However, in recent years, Chinese society has shown a shift towards traditional values and traditional life, and the so-called “national studies fever” is a clear proof of this. A group of scholars known as “new Confucianists” are trying to make adjustments to social reality in order to tap into the ideological resources of China’s modernization in ancient thought.

Is Confucianism, especially its modern political theory, still a dead end in today’s China, or is it still a hidden dragon with great potential? To this end, the Paper will continue to publish interviews and articles with contemporary Confucian scholars in order to present the general outline of this social trend for readers to discuss. The following is an interview with Confucian scholar Zeng Yi by The Paper, and the interview transcript has been reviewed by the interviewee.

Zeng Yi, with a goatee and black-framed glasses, wears a Chinese double-breasted suit in spring, summer, autumn and winter. He speaks in a slow and leisurely tone, and his students call him “Master Zeng.”

Zeng Yi, currently a professor at the Department of Philosophy at Tongji University, graduated from the Department of International Politics at Fudan University with a bachelor’s degree, and also received his master’s and doctoral degrees in Chinese philosophy at Fudan University. Talking about the key turning point in his path to Confucianism, it was when he was in his second and third year of undergraduate studies, he listened to Professor Xie Xialing’s lectures on The Analects and Cultural Philosophy. “At that time, I felt that this was the path I would take in the future. He later became my advisor when I was studying for my master’s and doctoral degrees.”

Zeng Yi’s doctoral thesis was on Neo-Confucianism of the Song and Ming dynasties, and he later specialized in Confucian classics. In recent years, he has been active in the Confucian academic circle with his deep thinking and clear stance on political Confucianism and Kang Youwei.

On the one hand, he led students to study Confucian classics in class, mainly spreading knowledge, and rarely involving his own thoughts. He also set up a reading club at home, leading students to read classics, and he believed that he was more meticulous and in-depth than teaching doctoral students, like a “disciple”. Once a week, with dozens of people each time, he has persisted for fifteen years, and more than a hundred students have participated. “When I first held the reading club, I restricted everyone not to discuss ideas, but to focus on reading and interpreting the text. Because ideological disputes often end up in meaningless emotional disputes, and even lead to the collapse of the group.”

On the other hand, he pays close attention to real politics and thinks about practical knowledge. In the interview, his understanding of government trends and his analysis of historical politics and current foreign policy are impressive.

It is worth mentioning that Zeng Yi’s book “Republic and Monarchy: A Study of Kang Youwei’s Late Political Thought” was interpreted as “defending monarchy” as soon as it was published in 2011, and some people even felt that “conservatives have returned.” He and Guo Xiaodong co-authored “What is Universal? Whose Value?”, which recorded a Confucian discussion in 2011. The part about marriage system and gender relations was recently posted online, triggering a wave of criticism. Faced with various controversies, how would the Confucian Zeng Yi respond? The Paper will explain them one by one for readers. The interview is divided into two parts, this is the first part.

Gongyang School is the political philosophy of ancient China

The Paper : What are your main academic concerns recently?

Zeng Yi : Recently, I have been co-writing “The History of Gongyang School of Spring and Autumn” with Guo Xiaodong. It is about one million words long and is almost finished. It should be published in 2015. This is a purely academic aspect. In addition, I have a strong concern for reality, which is mainly reflected in my research on Kang Youwei.

The Paper : If a reader who knows little about Confucianism asks “What is Gongyang School of Thought,” how would you answer?

Zeng Yi : Gongyang School is actually the political philosophy of ancient China. Political philosophy has been very popular in recent years, and among the various Confucian theories, Gongyang School is the one that is most closely related to practical issues such as political ideas and system construction. Other classics only discuss political issues in a few words, which is far less systematic and explanatory than Gongyang Zhuan. The theories of Gongyang School, such as Tong Santong, Sanshi Theory, and Yixia Theory, are still very explanatory even today.

For example, “Unifying the Three Unifications” is about how a new dynasty handles its relationship with the previous two dynasties. For example, how should the People’s Republic of China treat the Republic of China? In fact, over the past few decades, our attitude has been constantly changing: when we were fighting for the country and during the Mao Zedong era, we had a completely negative view of the Kuomintang; but after the reform and opening up, we have increasingly evaluated the contributions of the Kuomintang.

How to treat past history – this issue is closely related to reality.

The Paper : So you chose to study Kang Youwei and Gongyang School. What are the problem awareness and practical concerns behind this?

Zeng Yi : On the one hand, it is an academic concern. Kang Youwei is a representative figure of Gongyang School in the late Qing Dynasty.

On the other hand, it is because of the concern about the reform or legal reform. The so-called legal reform actually comes from an important theory of Gongyang School, namely Confucius’ reform of the system. The reform is actually the legal reform. When Confucius reformed the system, he was also facing an unprecedented great change in China. This change lasted for hundreds of years from Zhou Gong, Confucius to the early Han Dynasty. Through such a change, China entered the social state that we have seen for more than 2,000 years since the Qin and Han Dynasties. And this was mainly achieved through Confucius’ reform.

By the late Qing Dynasty, many thinkers believed that China was facing “a major change that had not happened in three thousand years.” Kang Youwei wanted to reform, and the deepest meaning behind it was actually: in the face of such a huge impact from the West, he wanted to make a compromise between China and the West, that is, to determine what path China would take in the future.

The reform that Kang Youwei talked about was actually the beginning of the next reform, which would eventually establish the path for China for thousands of years to come. Deng Xiaoping’s reform and the efforts of Confucianists in the future should all be included in this historical process. I think such an effort may last for hundreds of years and should be the goal of the joint efforts of the government and countless scholars.

Confucianism cannot do without official support, and it must actively seek official support.

The Paper : You probably noticed that the government has been promoting and emphasizing Confucianism in many aspects in 2014. As a Confucian scholar, what do you think of this phenomenon?

Zeng Yi : I feel that Xi Jinping’s series of speeches last year clearly affirmed Confucianism. There are two points worth noting in this affirmation.

　　First, he affirmed Confucianism as a way of governing the country. This is very different from the previous affirmation of traditional culture. Because affirming Confucianism as a way of governing the country is actually the same as Emperor Wu of Han’s “respecting Confucianism alone”. It is no longer just saying that there are some good ideas in Confucianism that can be used as a resource to educate the world and people’s hearts. The emphasis on the political aspect of Confucianism in his proposal is the key, which marks that Confucianism as a political concept and way of governing the country has begun to be affirmed by the central government.

Second, the words he mentioned in his speech at the 18th collective study session of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee in October are completely Gongyang School terminology. This was very rare in the past. For example, the word “change” has been popular among Confucianists in recent years. There are also “decline and chaos” and “prosperity and peace”, which are exactly the “three-era theory” of Gongyang School (believing that human society is a process of evolution in sequence from chaos to prosperity and peace to great peace), especially in the late Qing Dynasty.

In this way, the above attention to Confucianism and our expectations of Confucianism are actually very close. Generally speaking, the academic community will move more radically and faster. But this time, it is found that the government and the academic community have almost come together.

The Paper : We know that you have taught Confucianism courses at Fudan University and Tongji University for many years, and have also come into contact with Confucianism enthusiasts in society. Based on your personal experience, is the soil for the acceptance and development of Confucianism in China getting better and better?

Zeng Yi : It should be getting better and better. And the development of grassroots soil precedes the official promotion. Because all kinds of Chinese studies classes in society, including those for bosses and CEOs, have been popular for many years. Some people are interested in knowledge, and some want to solve life problems.

The Paper : But it sounds like this spontaneous enthusiasm for Confucianism among the people and the promotion at the official level are two different things?

Zeng Yi : They are two completely different things. There are many different opinions on the development trend of Confucianism. I know that in a previous interview with The Paper, someone said that if the government called on the whole country to believe in Confucianism, he would oppose it. But you have to know that the development of Confucianism has never been separated from the support of the government. For example, in the late Qing Dynasty and the early Republic of China, Confucianism collapsed quickly because the government did not support Confucianism. After all, Confucianism is not a religion as Westerners say, and it is not completely rooted in the soil of the people. Once the top collapses, it will quickly lose its influence.

This is unlike Christianity, which was originally a folk belief, and survived for hundreds of years after being persecuted, and eventually received official recognition and support. But because of this, without official recognition, it will always be persecuted.

Confucianism is different from Christianity. It does not need martyrs, but only virtuous people and gentlemen. If Confucianism always develops among the people and does some activities to popularize Chinese culture, it is really too low-level.

The Paper : If the government really implements it, won’t you have any concerns?

Zeng Yi : Many people are worried about this. For example, Dong Zhongshu had a disciple named Sui Meng, who applied Gongyang School’s theory of the correspondence between heaven and man to an extreme, and was beheaded. This danger does exist, and it is inevitable if you choose the political path. I think Confucianism should have enough political wisdom when intervening in politics, and have lofty ambitions while abiding by its duties. This is what Zhang Hengqu said: “Establish a mind for heaven and earth, establish a destiny for the people, inherit the lost knowledge of the past sages, and create peace for all generations.” It can be said that there is a long way to go.

But in any case, Confucianism should not overemphasize its folk nature. It should be regarded as an elite doctrine and fully enter the field of public activities. Otherwise, it will be like the various folk sects in the Ming and Qing dynasties, degenerating into secret groups or even cults. Being too folk is more likely to be suppressed.

The Paper : So you think official support is indispensable.

Zeng Yi : I think that Confucianism cannot do without official support, and it should actively seek official support. Now is the critical time for Confucianism to reinterpret itself to reflect the spirit of the times. Confucianism will not blindly return to the past. Mencius praised Confucius as “the sage of the time”. What does this mean? Because Confucius did not strictly abide by the Zhou rituals, but “kept pace with the times” and made changes to the old system. Only in this way could he build a set of outlines and laws that would last for thousands of years. This is what Confucianism means by “kept pace with the times”.

You see, I like to talk about male superiority and female inferiority, and praise the monarchy, as if I want to go back to the past. In fact, I definitely don’t mean what people misunderstand. Academically, I try to understand the rationality of these contents in ancient times, and dig out the spirit of “respecting the superior”, and then examine the various manifestations of this spirit in modern society; ideologically, I explore the rational application and manifestation of this spirit in modern society.

The spirit of Confucianism is to be flexible. Confucius advocated reforming the system, Kang Youwei advocated reforming the law, and both of them had to change. I know it is impossible to go back to the past, and there must be some flexibility. Some people seem to be more radical, but they appear to be pedantic.

Deng Xiaoping’s reform can be understood as a continuation of Kang Youwei’s reform ideas.

The Paper : You have repeatedly expressed in your books and articles that the construction of China’s future path has always been your core concern. What are your thoughts on the future path in terms of domestic affairs, foreign affairs, ideology and culture, and social life? Which one do you have more experience with?

Zeng Yi : In the current Confucian circle, Jiang Qing is probably the only one who has a clear and complete construction of this. Let me talk about diplomacy, because it is more related to the “internal and external doctrines” or the theory of Yixia of the Gongyang School.

According to Gongyang School, the world is divided into three levels: China, the Xia people, and the barbarians. This division is also reflected in modern international relations. For example, after World War II, the Soviet Union and the United States emerged as two superpowers, each with a group of allies, competing for world hegemony. The Soviet Union and the United States are equivalent to the “China” in Gongyang School; their respective allies, whether “satellite countries” or “vassal states”, are equivalent to the “Xia people” with the same language and ethnicity; each regards the other as a barbarian who threatens its own culture and system.

At present, China is in a relatively isolated situation in diplomacy, and there are very few true allies. If China wants to be truly strong, it is not enough to have its own economic and military strength, but it needs a group of brothers. So where is this ally, or the circle of Xia? According to the theory of Gongyang School, it must be found in countries with the same language and race. In the past, we used to say that the third world is a natural ally. But most of the third world countries are Asian, African and Latin American countries. They are poor and have completely different cultures and races from us. How much use can they have for us? It is hard to say. The biggest problem of China’s diplomacy now is to deal with the South China Sea and the relations with the three countries of Japan, South Korea and North Korea in East Asia. In the traditional ancient international relations system, these countries can actually be regarded as the same language and race as China. In the future, China should not only maintain good relations with them, but also include them in our circle of allies, just like the relationship between the United States and Western Europe.

When I went to Malaysia, I also discussed this view with local Chinese. The proportion of Chinese in Malaysia is second only to Singapore in Southeast Asia. When Kang Youwei went to Malaysia, he specially inscribed “Don’t forget China” on a stone. The local Chinese still yearn for the mainland, but cannot integrate into the local society dominated by Malays. Because the Chinese always have the heart of “don’t forget China”, it affects the loyalty of Malay citizens to the government. In 2012, when Wen Jiabao visited Malaysia and met with local Chinese communities, he specifically asked the Chinese to be loyal to the local government. This is very special. We certainly won’t go to the United States to say this to the Chinese. The Chinese in other places can more or less integrate into the local mainstream society, but Malaysia is different. The Chinese in Malaysia not only speak Chinese, but also use Chinese as the teaching language in school.

I would also like to talk about my thoughts on the current reform path. I have been thinking a lot about this issue recently. In modern times, there are generally two ways of thinking.

One is from Sun Yat-sen to Mao Zedong, which is the revolutionary path. The left, center and right ideologies at that time were more or less revolutionary, and they were just fragments of ideas in the revolutionary tide. From the Xinhai Revolution to 1978, it lasted nearly 70 years.

The second is that it started from Kang Youwei’s late Qing Dynasty reform, to the late Qing Dynasty New Deal, and then to Deng Xiaoping’s reform, which can be understood as a continuation of Kang Youwei’s reform ideas, which lasted for about 50 years. There is also a saying that this reform path can be traced back to the Westernization Movement, which means that it has a history of nearly 90 years. I think the characteristics of this reformist path are mainly a return to tradition and conservative characteristics. When we talk about conservatism now, the first thing to be conservative is the basic framework of the People’s Republic of China, because no matter how the reform is carried out, it cannot change the pattern of the Communist Party of China sitting on the throne like the former Soviet Union. If we do not adhere to the conservative connotation of reform, it is very dangerous, because if we are not careful, we may end up with a revolution like the former Soviet Union. Just like Kang Youwei always emphasized loyalty to the government when he was carrying out reform, so he was different from Sun Yat-sen’s revolutionary party. This is the basic connotation of conservatism. Another meaning of conservatism is that revolution is often like a storm, which will destroy all the traditions of the past, but Deng Xiaoping’s reform is to “cross the river by feeling the stones”, walking more steadily and slowly, and taking each step carefully. I believe that China’s future path will still be the path of reform rather than revolution.

The Paper : Confucian scholars are actually quite diverse now. How do you view your position in the spectrum?

Zeng Yi : Any kind of thought can be divided into left, center and right. I used to lean towards the “left”. For example, more than 20 years ago, when everyone was talking about democracy and freedom, I was the only one who opposed it. Later, when I joined the Confucian circle, I also leaned towards the “left”, mainly because I agreed that the Communist Party’s contribution to the establishment of modern China cannot be denied, and I affirmed Mao Zedong’s pioneering contribution. In fact, from the perspective of Confucianism, Mao Zedong can be regarded as the founding father of this dynasty. Confucianism talks about “ancestors have merits”, and I affirm that Mao Zedong is the founding father because of his merits in founding the country. As for the “left” faction in China, they affirm Mao Zedong from the perspective of “virtue”, which is too “left” and I don’t agree with it.

The Paper : But because you advocated returning to Kang Youwei and promoting monarchy in your book “Republic and Monarchy”, many interpretations classify you as a conservative?

Zeng Yi : Well… I personally think that I lean towards the “left”. But some people may think that I lean towards the “right” or even the extreme “right” because they think that since I support the monarchy, I am the extreme “right”. In addition, I have recently affirmed the path of reform and opening up since Deng Xiaoping from the perspective of Gongyang Studies, which can also be regarded as a “right” performance.

The Paper : Yes.

Zeng Yi : But in a sense, the monarch can be equated with the country. So many of the current “leftists” have nationalist positions. Liberals, on the other hand, emphasize standing on the individual’s position. So if we divide them this way, I lean towards the “left”.

Chinese learning and Western application: it can accommodate all kinds of ideas, but the orthodoxy is in Confucius and Mencius

The Paper : I found that the tolerance of other ideologies varies among Confucians. For example, Professor Bai Tongdong and Professor Fang Xudong, whom we interviewed before, are more liberal. But some Confucians believe that Confucianism is the only correct path. What do you think, Professor Zeng?

Zeng Yi : Fang Xudong is a typical liberal, while Bai Tongdong has a bit of a nationalist stance. Qiu Feng has changed quite quickly in the past two years, making some of his former friends unable to adapt. Every time I meet him, I find that his stance is more Confucian.

I have always advocated the idea of combining Chinese learning with Western learning. In my opinion, the basic connotation should be: based on China’s own actual situation, other schools of thought can be used as long as they can be used by us, whether it is Confucianism or traditional Chinese thought outside Confucianism, or foreign Marxism, liberalism, etc.

There is another meaning. Some of my “leftist” friends said that they also talk about “Chinese learning for substance and Western learning for practical use”. So what is the difference between what they say and Confucianism? They believe that Chinese Marxism itself is also a manifestation of “Chinese learning for substance and Western learning for practical use” – the result of successive generations of Chinese Communists, starting from Mao Zedong, basing themselves on the actual situation in China and combining Marxism with reality. This is fundamentally different from what Confucianism says.

The key point is that when Confucianism talks about “Chinese learning for substance and Western learning for practical use”, it also has the concept of “orthodoxy”. If you want to trace the roots of the “left”, you will eventually have to go back to Marx. But the orthodoxy of China can only be traced back to Confucius and Mencius. Regarding this point, Sun Yat-sen had a very good statement in the past. Originally, Sun Yat-sen’s Three Principles of the People came from the West to a large extent, but in his later years, he believed that his Three Principles of the People were in the orthodoxy of Confucius and Mencius. In other words, he believed that the orthodoxy of Confucius and Mencius had different manifestations in different eras. In his era, it was manifested as the Three Principles of the People. In our era, it may be manifested in another form. But the source can only be Confucius and Mencius, and we cannot find a Westerner to trace our ancestry.

So in my opinion, no matter which school of Confucianism, at least they have to admit the two meanings of “Chinese essence and Western application”: on the one hand, they are based on China’s reality and can absorb everything; but on the other hand, there is still a tradition, something that does not change. Of course, the specific understanding will be a little different.

The Paper : What do you mean by “Taoism”?

Zeng Yi : The so-called “Tao” refers to the way of the ancient kings, that is, the path that the ancient sages led the Chinese people to take. The sages of all ages, from the legendary Yao, Shun, Yu, Tang, Wen, Wu, and Zhou Gong, to Confucius, Dong Zhongshu, Zhu Xi, and finally Kang Youwei, their exploration and exploration of this path constituted the “Taoism”. Sun Yat-sen believed that he was the successor of this Taoism, so he could be considered to be included in this Taoism. If Zhou and Confucius were criticized like in the “Cultural Revolution”, no matter how the “left” talked about “Chinese body and Western use”, it would not be in this Taoism.

The Paper : Can Confucians reach a consensus on what constitutes the orthodox doctrine?

Zeng Yi : Confucianism should have no objection to continuing the tradition of Confucius and Mencius. However, there are different opinions on who is in this tradition. For example, I admire Kang Youwei, but many people at that time criticized him for being “Confucius in appearance but a foreigner in heart”, so he cannot be counted in this tradition. But I think that Kang Youwei advocated reform in the context of the late Qing Dynasty, and he truly understood Confucius and was a “sage of the time”, so of course he is in this tradition. Because the spirit of Confucius will be expressed in different doctrines in different eras, we cannot blindly stick to existing doctrines.